Bring back the old forum! (plus a wiki for advice pages)

I really prefer the old forum set up as well, from a user point of view. I thought it was much easier to follow.

I believe this new interface was introduced in 2006.

I wonder if there is a way to keep the system on drupal or whatever, but make the interface of the forum more like the old forum....

In the meantime, I hope you will continue to read and post to the current forum.

Thanks for introducing this topic.

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Jayne Cravens
www.coyotecommunications.com/development/
Bonn, Germany

So it's not just me that gets lost looking for 'old' threads? =)

One key point is that perhaps we need to regularly assess the site and ask users what they like/ don't like about it. Any thoughts on how we can do this best?

These points are valid, and if it's not just the three of us that think this, then we need to seriously consider ways to get the old forum format back?

James - I love your WikiAdvice idea.

... who often mistakenly posts twice when trying to reply to a thread. Another problem with the current interface.

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Jayne Cravens
www.coyotecommunications.com/development/
Bonn, Germany

Hey,

I just checked out the old forum. Wow, you are right that format is a lot easier to follow, its much more like a forum rather than several pages of blogs.

Just to offer the flip side opinion, I think that the new forum is better suited for shorter topics that provoke one or two responses. But perhaps what we should be looking at are a couple of larger topics or themes that can provoke longer discussion? Though if a thread were really long would it make it any easier to find the info that you are looking for?

I would prefer the Advice Pages as a Wiki.

About the Forum, it could be made simpler and more user friendly.

However, the question is, who is going to bell the cat or in other words, who is going to volunteer to make all the necessary changes???

Those are some great ideas coming... Let's not think of how to make them a reality just yet!

We can come up with ideas and possibilities and then enjoy the 'how do we make this happen' part afterwards!

Here is a link to a very popular forum for foreigners living in Beijing.

http://www.thebeijinger.com/forum

The Beijinger Forum
Its got great organization and really easy to use. It highlights the forums that are the most popular as well as those with the latest activity.

The page itself is a little chaotic but the forum layout is good.

Well it certainly seems folks are generally in favour of a more traditional forum/bulletin board. It's only the details that remain and the feelings of the admins, of course.

The beijinger, while the layout for the site is terrible, is a good example of phpbb3 being used as part of drupal.

The alternative is to use the Drupal integrated forum module. Which is fine, if quite simplistic. I still prefer phpbb for familiarity and sophistication though...

Usernames and passwords would not change in adding a forum. Also, unlike last migration where the old forum was simply left for dead we can easily migrate these 'forum' threads to the actual forum. either drupal or phpbb.

There is not quite as much enthusiasm for the wiki, though I really do see this as a great way to grow the advice pages allowing for collaborative work and revision. I think wikipedia might be a poor example, too big and detailed. I was envisaging something along the lines of WikiTravel. It's a much smaller site, where pages are divided by sections, though not necessarily pages.

The wikimedia software is more than is needed for this application. All the key functions can be achieved with Drupal with the use of modules. Including migrating current content, which i think is important. This is all part of the advantage of moving to a CMS like Drupal.

So I think phpbb for the forum and modifying drupal to use allow for wiki type functionality.

I wonder if any admins have noticed this 'thread'?

"it certainly seems folks are generally in favour of a more traditional forum/bulletin board."

Indeed.

AWN is an all-volunteer organization, with different people all over the world taking on different roles with the management of this web site. Unfortunately, AWN is severely under-staffed right now -- there are not enough volunteers, particularly volunteers with a high-level of tech expertise, to do everything that is needed. So please undersatnd that a huge task like reconfiguring the web site is something that cannot happen any time soon, and cannot happen quickly -- not with all of the other pressing priorities for AWN.

I can't speak on behalf of the AWN board, but I can speak as someone that's been volunteering for AWN for a while. I think that there will be a lot of resistance to abandoning the Drupal system that several volunteers worked very, very hard to move the site to in 2006. But perhaps there a way NOT to abandon this sytem -- just to create a user interface for the forum that looks more like the old forum.

But before this is talked about, before people start making suggestions for designs and submitting examples, I ask that you give the AWN board time to read this thread, digest it, and act on it in a way that can be more strategic. Maybe they will want to do a formal polling of members. Maybe they will want to talk to some of the people who have posted here individually.

James, your email that you sent me off board has been passed on to the AWN board. Someone will be in contact with you at some point, and I've given you an email address so you can contact the board directly.

Thanks to everyone who has given feedback. I am NOT trying to shut down discussion -- just trying to clarify some points. I don't want everyone engaging in some huge, detailed discussion that won't result in something actually *happening*.

For more information on volunteering with AWN, to help out on these and other issues, see:
http://www.aidworkers.net/?q=node/1300

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Jayne Cravens
www.coyotecommunications.com/development/
Bonn, Germany

;-)

Jayne: maybe we can check with the AWN webmasters what it would take (or if possible) to reintegrate a more standard discussion forum... I would agree with the other comments: the current discussion forum is rather hard to use, thus making the threshold to post/discuss rather high...

Converting the resource pages to a Wiki platform might be ambitious and I realize how scarce the resources are to set it up and to support it.

P.
____________
Peter Casier.
The Road to the Horizon
The Signs Along The Road
AidNews

Thanks Jayne for being open about the current state of affairs. It does sound like right now might not be the most opportune time to make significant changes to the system that everyone is familiar with. It seems like with all the flurry about new board members and seeking volunteers and funding that AWN is looking to set itself up for a new long term, ongoing strategy, which is great. Once this is sorted, maybe the board members can put out a poll to the community.

I do think it's best to do one thing at a time. When the board is ready, we could start with a poll on changing to a more standard forum structure. Again, if help is needed setting up a poll, i'm more than willing to help. I think the answer would be pretty clear on this one though.

Once we've done that, then we could look at the wiki idea, which is a more complex question regarding how we want the site to work. It may be that some people don't like the idea of other people being able to make changes or additions to their advice pages...

All that being said, the work involved is relatively painless and with adequate testing before going live, i'd say it's also safe. But it's not something to rush into either.

Finally, just to be clear, the Drupal system is great and I really think that AWN should stick with it. Using phpbb would mean moderators would have more control over the forums, but the user database would not change and the current forum posts would be converted to forum threads. drupal.org has a forum and you can see it is fine and functional. The phpBB forum is nicer with more features. Both would be a significant improvement and would make people, at least the ones posting here, happy.

Thanks again, everyone, for the input and your patience. Once the board and the volunteers who maintain the AWN web site get several tasks off their plate -- and this will easily take the rest of the year and probably for a couple of months into the new year -- I hope that looking at a forum redesign can really begin.

A wiki for the advice pages -- that's something that probably can't be looked into until even later. But don't let the idea die! And for all of you who like the idea -- are you ALSO ready to serve as volunteers to help make this happen? Are you ready to offer *time* and work to make it so and maintain such? For more information on volunteering with AWN, to help out on these and other issues, see:
http://www.aidworkers.net/?q=node/1300

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Jayne Cravens
www.coyotecommunications.com/development/
Bonn, Germany

Thanks to all for a really useful and insightful discussion. It's true that the board is going through some changes, and we're trying to get the basics sorted before making too much change. It's great to know that people are keen to see this develop and we will endeavour to facilitate what we can as soon as possible. Watch this space, keep on with these great discussions and get involved!

Mark

Hi -- Been following this thread a bit. Interesting stuff.

There are some similar Wiki projects to AWN,such as Appropedia and Howtopedia, both of which are still actively used (particularly the former).

A bit of history: It was me and Ricardo that moved AWN completely onto Drupal, after a long consultation with both AWN's Advisory Panel, Board and major volunteer supporters. We experimented with a wiki, which was a bit crap, and looked at the full range of free forum software that was available in 2006/7. DiscusWare, which powers oldforum.aidworkers.net  is actually a great piece of software, and has an excellent "reply by email" function which no other forum software has (except GroupServer). However, it's challenging to integrate with other systems like mailing lists, with methods of creating "real" webpages, and with places AWN could syndicate its content (like AlertNet, for example). It doesn't use RSS, which enables this, and we felt this was not going to happen in a reasonable time (and still hasn't). 

Another reason for Drupal was to have a unified approach to contact management and mass communication. AWN should be pulling and pushing information between its website and its wider membership, per the earlier Aid Workers Exchanges. This highly focussed, facilitated exchange of information was what set AWN apart from comparable initiatives and contributed to its early growth and credibility. It was also what users found most valuable. Still, it was both an idiosyncratic, and remarkably tedious process, involving manually harmonising lots of very large lists, and grappling with multiple challenging tools.  It's now completely automated using an open source system called CiviCRM, but sadly without much human resource to use it effectively anymore, at least at this time.

The architecture of the site is also pretty sound and the content reusable should resource be available to do it. The "forum" as is, is basically an aggregation of user's blogs (which all AWN users have). It was designed more as a Metafilter-style system and can be reformated pretty easily as a more traditional looking forum, or even moulded into something completely different. 

Some of the stuff you're talking about (ease of use, ease of contribution) can be sorted out with small investments in design and tweaking of the system's configuration, which AWN had long planned to do. All web pages on Aidworkers Network are basically Wiki pages already, and have version control built in. Editing permissions are just restricted, so people who want to contribute are funnelled into an editorial process. This isn't a way that everyone is comfortable working, particularly with the expections of openness that come from using Wikipedia, but it is what AWN could agree to at the time. Perhaps people feel differently about this now, and it's time to review who can edit what.

In short, I think AWN has all the tools it needs to do what it wants to do, but fundamentally AWN has to compete on content and credibility, not platform. I my view, a truly great article, once a month, distributed to AWN's 17,000 subscribers (possibly the biggest mailing list in the sector, outside of Reliefweb Jobs) would be a sounder investment than a few days of copy-pasting into Facebook.

First off -- the FaceBook effort is NOT meant to be anything but a way to recruit new members to AWN, something AWN very much needs. It took seconds to set up. I see no reason not to do it, particularly given how little is being done otherwise to promote AWN to aid workers.

Secondly -- thanks so much for the background. It's nice to have it archived on the site.

Thirdly -- I hope everyone at this point understands that the message from users that the forum interface is not something most people like *has* been heard loud and clear by the board. When several other pressing things have been dealt with, then the volunteers who help maintain this site will start looking at a redesign for the forum interface. That will happen some time next year, should all the current volunteers stick around. But if you have expertise using the systems on which AWN is built, and you feel you could help with programming, then please email me at volunteer@aidworkers.net

Fourthly -- AWN doesn't really have 17,000 subscribers. There are thousands of bad addresses. Once these are purged, the numbers are going to plummet. Not sure when this purge is going to happen.

And, finally - "I think AWN has all the tools it needs to do what it wants to do, but fundamentally AWN has to compete on content and credibility, not platform." Absolutely correct. AWN needs more people posting to the forum, submitting quality information for the AWN advice pages, and engaging in outreach activities to get more aid and development workers using AWN. It has all the tools to do this NOW.

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Jayne Cravens
www.coyotecommunications.com/development/
Bonn, Germany